对话_Dialouge

赵域&竹子&田田的谈话
人物:赵域 & 吴建安(竹子)& 王田田(田田)
地点:竹子房间
时间:2009年7月20日晚

..............
竹子:这张是我比较满意的.

田田: 画的是水和乌龟是吧?像水一样的乌龟，

竹子: 对. 我现在的绘画方法都是信马由缰式的,像这些都是5张同时开工,就是没有任何想法的开始乱涂,然后慢慢的用自己的一套语言和体系把他们统一起来.画面不断的处于变化之中,就是没有一个固定的形式,绘画就是这样的,是由画面自己决定的,你不能控制它. 然后这张也是由最开始的一张画改了好多遍才出来的,原来的那张大概是半年前画的,挂在那里对他一直都不满意,反反复复的擦了画画了擦,才到现在这个效果.处于一个半完成的状态是我比较满意的.

田田: 这张画的是什么?

竹子: 瀑布. 最开始我本来想画象山的屋顶的,开始画成横的觉得不好,后来改成斜的还是不对,慢慢的画面变成现在这样,一片水从上面流下了,下面3个是石头,这是溅起的浪花...木炭这种材料最美的绘画肌理是这种用橡皮反复揉搓后的模糊的淡淡的效果.像这种刚画上去的如果不擦是很难进行深入的,我一般是先用手去揉,然后再用棉布去擦,最后用橡皮,我在做的是减法...现在我在不断的尝试把所有的画面都控制在一种几乎接近白的灰度里面,这种灰是很美的.

赵域: 我觉得这张有一种特定的情绪在里头,而你把这种情绪抓的特别好.就是那种特别敏感的东西.

竹子: 恩,它的最开始就是没有方向感,将走到哪一步根本不是我能控制得了的,而是画面本身在控制.绘画本来就是一个动词,不是名词.然而我现在在做的事情是这样的:我在写每一个"字",而不是在每一张画上写一句"话".当整个系列呈现的时候,才成为一句话.这也是我在努力去思考的东西,就是你怎么做到画面本身不是在"说话",而当系列呈现的时候别人有能体会到你想说的是什么.
........

赵域: 他(刘晓东)我觉得还是占据了一个自己的空间吧,他的东西就像贾樟柯的东西一样,占据了那个领域的一个空间....我们处在任何一个时代,大家的焦虑都是一样的.他的绘画就是反应一些社会普通人的生存状态吧.

田田: 就是比较现实嘛.

竹子: 我觉得那不是绘画该做的事情.

赵域: 我是觉得吧,必须得是有一个人在做这样的事情,但是有一个人就够了,别的人就不要再去那样做了.不然就没劲了. 厄,你看了贾樟柯的那个电影<24城>吗?

竹子: 新的吗?

赵域: 恩 , 是的.但很弱.如果你看了王斌的<铁西区>的话,它是一个长线的全景式的纪录，相比之下24城就显得太弱了.所以这种东西就是这样,一个人占了这个地方并且做的已经很宽大了,别人再去说这件事就没劲了.

竹子: 就像徐冰说的:你必须是在艺术这个领域给艺术提供了一种新的表达法,你才有意义.就像前几天我跟田田电话里谈到的,安迪.沃霍尔只是在他那个特定的年代就显得特别有价值,放到现在就很没意思.

田田: 我觉得我们现在做东西可以很个人化了,很难找到一个很主旨的东西.

赵域: 我觉得主旨这个东西是走过来的,一开始所有的东西都是个人化的.比如说凡高,塞尚的东西.只是他走到了一个阶段以后,他变成了一个共同的演绎了,他就变成了一个非常主流的东西.当你看寺山修司的片子的时候,你会说哎呀现在也有些人也在做这样的东西阿.但是当你看他早期的短片的时候,是特别私人的东西.所以很多东西都是走过来的,你不能光看结果.包括安迪沃霍尔早期的东西也是非常个人的,你看他当时画的鞋啊脚啊等,就是罐头他也有一种他自己很私人的认识.

田田: 安迪沃霍尔跟凡高是一样的状态吗？

赵域: 是的,他俩最一样的状态就是对某种东西疯狂的迷恋,比如说凡高就是对一些破鞋,一本破旧的圣经,破椅子等.对一种最通俗的东西的迷恋.因为在他之前并没有人对这种破的东西迷恋.没有人对垃圾堆里的东西迷恋,大家画的都是一些尽量美好的东西.而他开始了对这些东西的发现...我觉得安迪沃霍尔也是一样,对一个罐头的迷恋,拍摄一个人躺在那里睡觉,对慢的东西的有一种很深的痴迷...
...........

赵域: 噢,我现在做了一本杂志,这期的专题就是关于徐冰的地书.你看了他的展览吗?

竹子: 他的地书就是在探索一种人类沟通的新的语言.之前我看完他的这个作品后自己也在思考了一下,就是人类发展到最后将是以一种什么的方式来沟通.比如说我们现在是用文字和语言在沟通是吧,然后徐冰在探索用图形来沟通. 我当时就在想当人类发展到最高阶段时是不是能用意识来沟通.就是我在面对你的时候我在想什么你就已经知道了.类似于在大脑里植入芯片这种东西.或者一个眼神什么的...虽然说他的地书没那么玄乎,但是至少他是第一个在这个领域里探索的人,也许一百年以后,人类就是可以以这种新的语言来沟通.

赵域: 我觉得图形永远是一种模糊表达,文字是一种精确表达.但是模糊表达有一个好处就是他给你一个情绪的东西,这东西没法言说.并且我觉得你要是单纯从语言这个角度来说的话,像索绪尔等这帮人要比艺术家牛B.艺术家更多的是在拓展语言的宽度。
.........

竹子:对,就像我们上次谈到的这个问题一样,就是说你有这个对艺术的感悟,重要的一点是要以什么样的方式输出.很多人在学术上,意识上,修养上都达到了一定的高度,但是他做出来的作品确非常的傻,这是很要命的.
赵域:邱志杰.就是那样的,

竹子: 对,上次和朋友谈到他是个天才,但未必能成为大师.

赵域: 这个人很有魅力,包括这个人的想法和思维逻辑,挺好的.

田田: 我觉得他的画要比装置有魅力.

竹子: 他的画都喜欢把文字写在上面,我认为绘画还是以绘画本身来彰显它的魅力.

田田: 我觉得这很正常啊,中国传统绘画都是把字和画结合在一起的.一幅画里面如果没有这个寓意的话,就是废画.

竹子: 其实我开始决定要作艺术是受老邱的影响,大概是我大二下学期的时候,在滨江的图书馆发现了老邱的一本画册,看到他早年做的比如说在钱塘江用一根水管吸上游的水然后对着下游尿尿的一个行为,就是身体成为河流的一个部分,还有把<兰亭集序>书写一千遍等,当时就疯了,还有这么牛的人.后来慢慢的在他的网站上下了他写的那3本书打印了几大本,像<自由的有限性>等.还看了他的博客,然后得出的一个结论是:这是我见识到的第一个天才....但现在回过头来再看他的东西,就已经更平静了....

赵域: 噢,有一个行为的艺术家，何云昌,我很喜欢他的东西.他在英国做了一个行为特棒,就是他在英国的海边捡了一块圆的石头,然后抱着这个石头绕英国走了一圈,最好又把这个石头放回原处.特棒.你知道吗?就是他什么的没说,但却有一种无声的力量,就是让你从新去思考很多东西.这个我觉得特棒.....讨论孙原&彭禺在唐人画廊做的展览<自由>...(高压水管在喷水,像一条狂莽)

田田: 那这个与你喜欢的那个抱石头走一圈的艺术家的作品是一种方式吗?赵域: 对,但是他们的相同点是都给了我一种直接的震撼.那个是一种柔和的震撼,这个是一种激烈的震撼,但一下子就把我打动了.

竹子: 就是作品先行于意义,根本就不用解释.

田田: 我觉得这就跟我以往一直和竹子讨论的话题一样的,就是任何艺术形式都有他本身的语言,比如绘画有绘画语言,电影有影像语言.因为我是先听老邱的讲座再看他的展览,然后我看完就确实有被感动了.可能不是某个作品,或者几句话,但是整个整体在一起就打动我了,所有我不能很好的去判断.

赵域: 你是觉得怎么被打动了,你是理解他了?

田田: 对.老邱的东西是特别需要解释的.但是确实在存在这样的艺术家和艺术.

赵域: 我是这么理解什么是好东西的,就是说他什么都没告诉你,但是他让你重新去思考你所面对的周围的东西.我并不是特别喜欢被感动的东西.

田田: 其实我理想的状态是认为作品是不需要解释的,但很多作品的形式是没有边界的,像艾未未做的<童话>...

赵域: 我反对的是不需要进入他的作品,不然说,阿真美阿,真残酷阿,真感人阿.我不需要进入这些,我只需要他给我一面墙,我一下子面对这面墙,然后我得从新思考这是不是一面墙.就比如说那个抱石头的吧,当时我看到的就是一面墙,就是这面墙一下子把我挡在那儿了,然后我不会想他拿个石头是什么意思阿,绕英国转一圈多辛苦阿什么的,我会想,我的生活会是这么样的,我该怎么去看待其他的事.

竹子: 就像维特根斯坦的东西一样,他并不是告诉你什么是哲学,而是提供了一种让你看待事物的方法.

田田: 可能我自己有点转变吧,以前我和竹子还有你的观点也比较接近,就是不需要过多的解释一个作品,但是我现在觉得不需要给自己设定一个看待作品的障碍，.我最近在关注中国传统绘画,首先就是他作品的独立性不是很强,它是跟他整个人的状态,包括跟他周围人和所处的环境是有关系的.他的作品很难独立出来,当然,他挂在那里的时候它是一个独立的作品，跟现在一定要进入美术馆才算是作品的作品是不一样的，以前可能就闲了叫一帮朋友一起赏赏画，弹弹琴什么的，叫雅集....当然老邱的东西和那种还是有点不一样的.我看山水画,我不知道如果我不理解它的某种背景,或者说我如果从来没有在杭州这样有山有水的城市呆过，是不是能给我带来现在的感受？然后我过几年，再看同一幅画肯定又有不同的体会了，这个时候如果硬要去评判这幅画是不是有过多的解释或者是否具备绘画的独立性是件很累的事情吧。
.............

竹子: 首先古典音乐他不是一个光凭旋律来打动你的东西,它有一个强大的叙事性在后面,或者说是音乐家他个人对与生命或者他所感受到的东西的理解把他注入在音乐里面,而且你要听的懂古典音乐它是有一套自己的逻辑在里头,你得懂得一个基本的结构....你如果没有进入那个体系里面,你根本就无法体会到那种感动在哪里.

田田: 我看米兰昆德拉的东西,他很多次在他的小说里面提到音乐,提到贝多芬.我觉得西方音乐其实分析起来是很清楚的.大学的时候读<生命不能承受之轻>的时候我觉得他是一个比较混乱的东西,但他在《小说的艺术》里面，他在理这个结构,特别清楚,第一部分在讲什么,第二部分在讲什么.每一部分的时间他都算的很清楚,他是通过字数.就是几段话里他用了几个字,跟音乐的节奏是类似的.同时比喻的是音乐的节奏几分钟几分钟一段，它是确定的,我觉得这个挺神奇的.那么感觉性的东西尽然是可以被量化的，就像绘画里的透视量化了空间。但是我觉得中国传统山水画跟现在人的关系不是分析与被分析的关系.比如说你是一个西方人,你知道了音乐的结构,再加上你西方的文化背景,你可能更容易理解这个音乐.但我觉得山水画还是一个态度的继承.它始终是在讨论一个人与自然的关系 ,而那种关系不仅仅是一个表面的关系.有可以上升的东西,如果要继承的话,你必须要回到当时那个境况当中去.现在人之所以感悟不到这种意境一个很直接的原因是离自然远了...........

田田: 赵域说的要有一个专注的东西我很赞同,但现在的问题是我们不知道自己该专注什么.我觉得竹子的东西有点符号性.就是说你专注的是一个不是很个人的载体，云和山本身就是一个传统的东西,现在也许你已经有了自己的体会,但一开始可能是一个符号.能不能更个人化一点会不会....

竹子: 你说的个人化是吗?首先我从这个主题切入的话,我最开始没有说特别喜欢云或者山水.为什么我一开始会选择这个题材绘画是因为我一直以来都有在www.ffffound.com上收集很多有意思的图片.关于那些和云还有轻盈的东西最开始打动我了,你知道我08年底最开始的那张画吗?一个太空掉下来的陨石在半空中变成了云然后到了地面又变成了山.我用同一种绘画手法来处理他们,最开始是在追求这种东西.然后慢慢的发展到现在,已经退化到一个最简单的东西,也许就是一片云.我在努力构建什么呢?就是说只用一种表达法,不会出现很多符号性的东西.我理解你所说的符号性是这样的,比如说这里出现了一个苹果,那里出现了一个亚当,然后这里又出现了一面红旗.然后把这些符号放在一块的时候它就能产生一种新的意义.我专注的不是这个.我可能就用表现云的这一种方法去构建我的整个世界.像山,水,草,木.最终以系列呈现的时候,我希望这个的背后能看出我看待万物的方法.这才是我现在在努力追求的东西.

田田: 我并不是说这个是你的障碍,最开始你也许以为云是一个比较常谈的东西,我觉得绘画的力量就在于它可能最开始是一个符号,但到最后你可以用绘画的语言把这个符号打破掉.或者说是个人的自我的理解带来的力量。

赵域: 嗯,就像中国几千年来大家都画梅花,但是大师和画匠的梅花却是不同的.

竹子: 我现在自己最苦闷的地方在哪里知道吗,就是说,我现在画的东西是没有意义的,在单副画里面我不想去表现什么意义.但是我现在在追寻的突破点在哪里?就是如何让单幅没有意义的画系列呈现后又有意义.就像<庄子>里面谈到的,就是你看到很多大树,比如村子里或者庙宇旁边的大树,它为什么能成为大树,就是因为它无用,好的木材小的时候就会被人砍掉了.或者是因为它长在庙旁边,有灵性.比如说榕树,它没有什么用,但是能遮荫避暑.整个<庄子>讲下来你就能感悟出一种中国人的处世态度吧.比如说治国,往往是一些看似无能的皇帝他的朝代反而能很长久,就是无为而治吧.我的突破点就在这里,就是用怎么用一种看似很无用的东西去构建一个庞大的体系.这个很难.田田: 所以我在想这种难是不是一开始这个云就不够个人.它是一个普遍的东西.而你现在要做的是通过这种普遍的东西去构建属于你自己的东西.当然云本身还是很开放,很无形的东西.

竹子: 就比如说这张画吧,首先它并不"美",就是以这种方式来表现瀑布它并不是很"美",但是随着这种绘画的不可控制性...还有一个就是绘画的可控制性,就是说我意识里面是想达到那样,但是我表现不出来.最后信马由缰的绘画后就找到了一种新的方法来表现它.反而就出现了一种很个人的东西.就比如说很多油画或者雕塑系毕业的人他们功底很扎实,人体结构很懂.但反而有时候就是因为这些让他思维跳不出这个圈子.就像徐冰说的:越是在这个领域里有才能的人,就越可能跟这个领域里流行的东西太对路而没有空间............

赵域: 我是觉得影像的东西很包容,我觉得我拍了一个片子里面包含的东西是我原来所有平面的东西放在一起也没有那么尖锐和丰富.我就说一我自己的体会吧,在没有拍之前,我也有这么想过问题,但是没有像现在这样坚持,我只是去尝试的拍一下,但当拍完了以后,我马上看到了我这8年来做的这些事情跟这一件事去比,他们之间的落差很大.就是我作了那么多花了那么多的时间和精力.当然它对这个也有帮助,但是从作品本身来说,那平面的意义小了.你再回头去看,你就觉得这个东西必须得做,这个很重要.就像和我一哥们聊的那样,当你回过头看到自己的前半生一片空白,这个太可怕了.所以你必须得去做点什么.

田田：对，而且那个必须做的东西是不是艺术并不重要，但艺术常常是那样的东西。

竹子: 我觉得人是这样的,大概一年左右你会有一个阶段性的迷茫,当这个迷茫过后你会有一个阶段性的上升,当然也许是倒退.你不段的对自己的否定,然后再去肯定自己....其实田田一直以来都是一个特别优秀的人,可以说是平步青云,但是我就希望你能做出一些出格的事情.

田田: 也没有云啦.哈哈. 我有这个欲望. 我之前一直很喜欢空间这个东西，它可能是最没有意义的东西吧，你沉浸其中，它什么也没说，其实我不大相信有绝对没有意义的绘画，一件作品进入美术馆的原因就是它的意义。同时我觉得空间这个东西很难做成一个作品,很容易忽视掉.

赵域: 我觉得能.

田田: 有没有必要,能的话有没有必要去做.你可以让他作为一个背景.它不是一个作品也没有问题.当然你要做也能找到方法.其实我来北京印象最深的就是常青画廊做的那个展览.就是那个螺旋形的通道走到尽头后是一股蒸汽往上流的那个.其实我对空间的真实体验是从那个开始的,这也可以是我将来做作品的一个方向.同样是不需解释的作品我并不希望它是像药片说的一面迎面而来的墙一下把我吓蒙过去。另一个方向就是把它混掉也是一个方向.就比如说你营造一个场景或者一个生活的氛围,而不是追求空间做为作品的独立性。这个可能性会更大.像前几届的威尼斯建筑双年展,中国是许江跟王樹嘛,许江在王樹做的瓦园里展的是他的画,画的就是王樹设计的我们美院象山校区的瓦屋顶.许江说的是画家是把看到的东西转换成一个境界,建筑师是把心里的一种境界转换成实体.就是说如果你想的东西境界很高的话,如果它可以真实呈现不是更过瘾.就是能把那种境营造出来. 这些东西当然不是你一年两年能做到的啦,也许只有等你很多年以后才做到.所以我现在的困境就是我还只能想.哈哈............

完

Talk Between Zhao Yu, Andy Mo and Tiantian （ part 1 ）

Participants ；ZhaoYu, Wu Jianan (Andy Mo), Wang Tiantian (tiantian)
Place: Andy Mo's room
Time: July 20,2009 evening

Andy Mo :I am quite satisfied with this piece.
Tiantian:It's about water and a turtle,isn't it? A water-liked turtle.

Andy Mo :Yes, now all my drawing methods are like strolling about aimlessly. For example, these 5 paintings were started at almost the same time. Originally I had no idea of what to draw, but I drew them randomly, then unified them with my own “language” and “system” slowly. The picture did not have a fixed form but changed unceasingly. Drawing is such a kind of thing that it is decided by the drawing itself rather than person who draws it. Then this one also came from a painting which was revised many times, and the original one was drawn about half a year ago. I was unsatisfied with it all the time until it got the present effect after being painted and scratched repeatedly. I'm quite satisfied with the condition that things are partly completed.

Tiantian:What's its subject?

Andy Mo :Waterfall. At the very beginning, I wanted to draw the roof that looked like a mountain, but I wasn't feeling right when I painted it horizontally or slantly. Then the painting turned to look like this slowly: water flowed down from above, with three stones at the bottom, and the waves splashed…The most beautiful drawing texture for charcoal is the fuzzy light effect which comes from the rubber's being used repeatedly. It was very difficult to realize the effect if you didn't scratch the painting after you drew it. For me, I usually use my hands to rub it first, then with cotton fabric, and finally use rubber. I am doing a subtraction…Now I am in the incessant attempt to make all the painting under the control of a nearly-white gradation. This kind of color--grey --is very beautiful.

ZhaoYu:I thought there is a certain emotion inside the painting, and you stress it especially well., something very sensitive.


Andy Mo :. En … It didn't have the sense of direction at the very beginning, and for how long it could go was not under my control. It's the drawing itself decides what it will be like . Originally, drawing is a verb rather than a noun. However, what I'm doing now is writing a "character ", not a “sentence” on each painting. Only when the entire series are presented, can it become a sentence. What I've been pondering diligently is how to make the painting remain silent and meanwhile make others understand what you want to express when this series are presented.
......


ZhaoYu:I have the feeling that he (Liu Xiaodong) occupies a certain space in his field, and his works have the same character with that of Jia Zhangke, which shows the living status of some common people in our society. Everybody possesses the same anxiety no matter which era they are in.

Tiantian: It's quite realistic.

Andy Mo :I feel that it is not a task that the drawing should accomplish.

ZhaoYu: In my opinion, there should be someone handling such matters, and one person is enough, if other people follow the same route, then it will be meaningless. Have you watched the movie-Zhangke Jia's <24 Cities >?

Andy Mo :Is it the latest one?

ZhaoYu:En , yes, but it's quite weak. If you have watched Wang Bin's < Tiexi Area >, which is a long-line panoram -liked record, comparatively, <24 Cities> 's too weak. So things always go like this: once a person has occupied an area, others who follow his steps will become insipid.

Andy Mo :Just as Xu Bing said: “only when you provide a kind of new expression in the art field, you can be significant”. Andy Warhol only appeared particularly valuable in that specific age, but now he meant nothing. Tiantian has just discussed it with me by telephone a couple of days ago.

Tiantian:I think the things that we are doing now are very personal; it's hard to find a purport in them.

ZhaoYu: It strikes me that the purport is supposed to be formed gradually. From the very beginning, all things are personalized, such as the works of Van Gogh, Cezanne, and Picasso. Only when it reached a certain stage, it would become a common performance, a mainstream thing. When you watch the films of Shuji Terayama, you would find that there are many people doing such things as he did. But when you watch the short films of his early time, they were especially personal. Therefore, many things are formed step by step. You can not only look at the result. Andy Warhol's early works were also extremely individual, such as the shoes, feet or cans that he drew during that time, which contained a kind of his personal understanding.

Tiantian: Andy Warhol had the same status with Van Gogh?

ZhaoYu: Yes, the most similar character of these two people is their crazy love for certain things. For instance, Van Gogh was in crazy love with the most common articles such as some worn-out shoes, worn-out Holy Bibles and broken chairs. Because there was nobody who loved such kind of broken things before his time, In other words, nobody loved the things in the rubbish heap. Everybody had the tendency to draw fine thing as far as possible. But he started to discover those things…So did Andy Warhol, his crazy love for canned food. He took photos of a person lying there sleeping; He was infatuated deeply by slow things.

ZhaoYu:Oh, Now I am editing a magazine, the feature topic of this periodical is about Xu Bing. Have you seen his exhibition?


Andy Mo :His < book from the ground> is exploring a kind of new language for human communication. After watching his work,I have been pondering what the way for human communication would be when we develope to the final stage. For instance, now we communicate by words and language, while Xu Bing explores the communication with patterns. At that time ,I wondered whether it's possible for human to communicate by consciousness when we develop to the highest stage, that is, when I stand in front of you, from the emotion showed in my eyes, you can known what I am thinking about. It's similar to implanting a chip in the cerebrum. Although you said his < book from the ground > was not mysterious, at least he is the first person who explores the subject in this domain. Perhaps after 100 years, the human may communicate by his new language.

ZhaoYu: It strikes me that the graph is a kind of fuzzy expression forever, while character is a kind of precise expression. But one of the advantages of fuzzy expression is it gives you a kind of emotion which is hard to express by words. In my opinion, Ferdinand de Saussure and his group are more outstanding than artists as far as the angle of language is concerned. What the artists do most is broadening the width of language.

Andy Mo :All right, it's same as the question that we discussed last time, that is, you have the inspiration for art, however, what's more important is how to output your feelings. Many people have reached a certain altitude on academy, consciousness and tutelage, but their works are definitely silly. It is terrible.

ZhaoYu: Qiu zhijie is just like that.

Andy Mo :Right, previously I have said he was talented to my friend, but it's hard to say if he can become a master.

ZhaoYu: He is very charming, including his idea and logical thinking.

Tiantian: But for me, his paintings are more attractive than his installations.

Andy Mo : He likes to write characters on his paintings , but I think it's better to reveal the charm of drawing by the drawing itself.

Tiantian: To me it's quite normal, for in the Chinese traditional drawings, characters and the paintings are always unified together. If there is no such implication, the painting will become a waste.

Andy Mo : Actually, my decision to make artworks was influenced by Lao Qiu (Qiu Zhijie). It's probably at the second term when I was a sophomore; I had discovered one of Lao Qiu's picture albums in Bin Jiang library, in which I saw many works of his early years. For instance, pump the upper water in Qiantang River with a water pipe, then urinate towards the lower part of it, that is ,the body becomes a part of the river. And, he had< Orchid Pavilion collection > written 1000 times and so on. At that time, I was crazy for his works and hard to believe there was such an amazing person in the world. Later on, I downloaded 3 books from his website and made them printed, such as < finiteness of freedom >. I browsed his blog as well, then came to the conclusion: he was the first genius I have seen….But at present I am calm when I look at his works again….

ZhaoYu: Oh, there is a performance artist named He Yunchang, I like hisworks very much. He made an performance which is especially good in England. He picked up a round stone at England's seashore, then held the stone and walked around England, finally returned the stone to the original place. It's really good, don't you think so? He said nothing but actually, there was a kind of silent strength, which made you re-ponder many things. I think this part is especially good.

……

吴建安与胡柳的谈话
Wu Jian an talk with Hu Liu

时间:2009年3月11日
Time: march 11,2009

地点:北京798爱特咖啡
Place: At Cofe,798 art zone,Beijing

W:你说我们能不能制定一个目标,暂定2年后骑着马去旅行阿?
What do you think of setting a goal for travelling by horse in two years?

H: 好呀好呀....
That's a good idea!

W:一定,那一定要履行诺言.
Ok, we must fulfil the promise.

H: 厄,那得先赚钱,赚够我们的盘缠.
Then, we have to make money first, at least enough for our travelling expenses.

W: 不一定的啦,我觉得我们攒够买马的钱就可以了.
Not really,I think it will be enough for buying horses.

H:那要买2匹马吗?
Two horses?

W: 对,必须得2匹,一匹马会把它骑死的,还要加一头毛驴.
Yes, it has to be.Only one will be dying from hard work. Besides,we need a donkey.

H:我在走长征的时候,我那头毛驴都不大好意思骑它,我那个行李放上去都快到140斤,它差不多每走70里路就蔫儿了.
When I was on my way to long march,I feel so sorry for my donkey. Since the luggages weighted almost 70 kilograms, and he's exhausted after 70 miles' riding.

W: 它老了嘛,不然它应该很能驼的...厄,如果我们真的要那样的话,得找一匹半血马,纯血马耐力不行,但我又不想要一匹很丑的马...也许会是一个温血马...反正要漂亮点的啦...但我们不要去走长征的路线,我不喜欢长征,也不想和那个年代有什么关系.
Maybe he's old now, otherwise it'll be OK. Um…if we really mean to travel by horse, a half-blood horse will be a good choice, and the thoroughbred one is not suitable. Anyhow ,it must be hansome. Can we take another route instead of the long march one? I like neither long march or anything related to that time

.H: 我也不喜欢长征,我那会报那个方案,其实和他们(长征空间的卢杰和邱志杰等发起的走长征计划) 也没有关系.
Me neither. Actually, my application for that journey having nothing to do with them.(Lujie and Qiu zhijie from long march space launched the plan of pursuing the route of long march.)

H: ...你不觉得世界其实很圆满吗?我经常有这种感觉,发现就是一天的事件再拖的长点一个月的事件,甚至是好多年的事件它其实是很圆满的.非常圆满,根本就不用操心.哈哈...
Don't you think the world always makes things go well?I have such kind of feeling very often. Those things of the day,or longer than one month,even lasted for several years will go well and people will feel satisfied finally. It's totally no need of worrying about them.

W:对,所以我就喜欢你这种状态阿. 但是我对于你刚才说的,我的感受是这样的,拿到具体的事件比如说我要到达一个目的地,我知道经常走的一条路,但我会经常有一种冲动,故意随便插进一条小巷,最终也许这样冒险是失败的.但几个月或几年以后发生的一件事就会和这段荒诞的旅程有关.就像你说的所有的东西都会有个轮回.
That's right . I like your present attitude towards life. As for what you have said just now,my fellings are like this: a case in one point, as I know ,there is an usual way to reach my destination,however, I often have the desire to take another lane for purpose . Perhaps, the adventure will be failed at last, but things happened after some months or years would be connected to the absurd journey. Just as you said ,everything has the transmigration.

W: 我特别喜欢你这种状态,画只是你生活中不小心流露出来的一个点,而我们可以通过语言之外的这种方式进行沟通,让我了解你的生活和思想....
I especially love your condition. Drawing is only a point which revealed uncarefully in your life and we can carry on the communication by the way out of language. It makes me understand your life and your thoughts.

H:我觉得很多事情是这样,因为他要在他的那个领域争得一定的权利和地位,所以他会把所有的精力投入到里面,然后他会搞得自己很累,就"看"不清楚了...我觉得我更愿意作另一种人, 就是说,比如说餐饮业,我只是认准了它的一条路,就是一个点,非常根本的一个点,这个点首先它要非常的根本,就是直指人心,就是禅宗里说的"直指人心".那么我不需要花很多的心血去经营它,我只需要修行到一定的时候,认真的去做这么一点,把它做到极致.那么我每天用心的去做这件事,哪怕只有一分钟,这样我十年做出来的,跟你没有用心的去做出来的,肯定要高很多.然而画画就是这样一件事,而且对我身心有益.我不干对我身心无益的事情,哈哈哈..
I thought many things usually go like this: because he strives for achieving certain right or status in his domain, he may invest all his energy to the goal which makes him tired. Then he has lost.I thought I am willing to be another kind of person. For instance, if I recognize my road to be food and beverage industry, then it became a spot, an extremely basic spot which will refer only to the will of people straight in the Zen. Then I do not need to take many pains to manage it, but only to lead a pious life. I make this matter every day attentively, even if only a minute a day , ten years' persisitence will be better than those who do things unattentively. Painting pictures is such kind of thing, which is beneficial to me. I never do any useless matter to my body and soul,ha ha.

W:我曾经想过去养马,就是做一件完全和艺术没有关系的事情,而且是偏体力型的,不想去杂志社或者别的脑力型的工作,那种才叫累.就是去做一件完全不用动大脑的事情,等你休息下来的时候,你就可以很清净的去想一些事情.呵呵呵...虽然现在对我来说不是很现实,像我又这么瘦....但我真的很向往那种能静下来思考的状态.
I used to think of horse feeding, only want to do something totally with no relation to art.I'm not interested in going to the magazine company or other mental ability work which make me feel tired. When you get down to have a rest, you may think some matters purely.Ha-ha…Although now it sounds not very realistic to me, for I look such thin….But I really yearned for that kind of condition which may calm me down to ponder some matters.

H: 我一开始来北京的时候是画纸本的东西,我不会在一开始就选择去做很贵的东西.就像我手里的这个相机,我现在手头有什么相机就随便拍,我根本就不会去挑它的什么图片质量阿什么之类的,傻瓜也行,好点的也行,只要我手里拿得方便.
From the very beginning I came to beijing, I drew on notebooks . I will not choose to draw on expensive paper when I was only a beginner. Just like the cemera in my hand, the quality of the picture or other kind of such things are not my concern. Whatever type of cemeras(either the fool camera or other expensive one) will be good for me to take photos as long as they are convenient to carry .

W:是阿,有时候反而是当你得到了一台很好的相机时,却不知道去拍什么.这是很多人遇到的问题,我原来对摄影还很有兴趣,但现在这个阶段我基本已经放弃了,我当时想去买一台禄莱双镜头的胶片机,因为我不想把摄影变的那么廉价,就是拿着机器满大街乱拍的那种,我特别反感那种来旅游的人,胸前挂着个"大炮",咔咔咔个不停.当一个东西来的太容易的时候就没有意义了, 只有它很珍贵,你才会去想怎么把它拍好.所以这也是我为什么选择绘画.绘画是一个很本的东西,我现在之所以选择这种很简单的方式绘画,一个原因是现实条件的原因,更重要的是因为,我想把绘画的形势抛弃的最纯粹,不要去想技法,材料,色彩等问题,我回到家里随手拿起木炭就可以画,不会搞得"啪"一开始就很大场面,排兵布阵一样,像要打仗了.不是去想我要干一件什么大事,而是刚好我就在做这么一件事情,然后顺其自然的一直这样走下去...而且我喜欢躺在床上看着自己的画,而不是把生活和画画放在两个地方,我希望我的绘画就是我的生活.他们必须是在一个空间里的,脱离开来我就觉得特别别扭...
Sometimes when you obtained a very good camera, you would not know actually what to take. This is a question which many people meet very often. I originally have the interest to the photography, but at this stage I have already given it up. At that time I've thought of buying a double lens film machine branded LULAI, because I did not hope the photography to be changed inexpensively, that is, taking photos all around the road without any consideration. I especially disliked the people who travelled in this way: hung a " cannon " in front of their chest, carbazole carbazole carbazole without stopping. When a thing comes too easy, it will lose the significance. Only when it is very precious, you will willing to take it serious and good. That is why I choose the drawing. The reason for I choose to draw in the very simple way is the actual condition. What's more important, I'd like to abandon the situation of drawing thoroughly, with no need to think the technique, the material, or color, etc. When I get home, then take up the charcoal to draw conveniently. It will not put the drawing on the magnificent scene from the very beginning. It doesn't mean you must do any important matter, but you are on the way to handle such matters, then allows nature to take its course . Moreover, I like lying down to look at my own picture in the bed, not to separate the life and painting in two different places. I hoped my drawing is my life, they must be together in the same space,if they are separated from me,I will feel irritable...........

W: 我们中心<艺术与投资>现在的主编董冰峰他当时给我推荐了他认为的10个最好的导演,包括像俄罗斯的索科洛夫,日本的小津安二朗,波兰的瓦伊达等,当然他推荐的这些人的电影我大部分都有看过,是非常的好,但是我认为他们那个年代的人,他现在四十多岁吧,更关心的是电影所表达的意义,和思想的深刻性等文化价值.他们更多的把电影当作一个社会性的问题.但是我们这个年代或者是我,更关心的是从电影本身的角度来思考电影.我认为,电影最重要的是要有电影语言,电影语言包括的几个点,一个是影像感,第二个是运动感,它和摄影的区别就在于它是运动的.第三个是剪辑,也就是蒙太奇.第四个是场面调度,等等,这些就构成了别的方式,比如绘画,音乐,文学所不能做到的独有的电影语言.举个例子吧,不知道你有没有看过<十分钟年华老去>其中有一个短片,讲的是一个婴儿脐带没有剪好,结果流血了,后来被她母亲发现了又从新扎好了的事情,基本没有故事性,其实我认为电影就不应该讲故事,但是为了让你明白个大概我简单的像你描述一下几个镜头.这是好多年前看的片子了,所有好多都不记得很清楚,我大概的说一下吧.记得最开始的镜头是,一个农场的中午左右,阳光很强烈,镜头切到一把镰刀在割草,咔咔咔,接下来的一个镜头是一个被风吹动的秋千,咿呀呀的声音和割草的声音很协调,接下来还有几个同样节奏的镜头,然后随着苍蝇的嗡嗡嗡的声音,镜头里出现了一个血迹的点正在蔓延开来,慢慢的渗透变大,接下来有是几和心跳差不多的节奏感的镜头,像钟摆的滴答滴答,这些镜头集聚在一起就很好的表现出了一个非常宁静的夏天的中午,还有就是一种时间性.差不多快到结束的时候,传出了一阵婴儿的哭声,然后她的母亲过来了,发现了脐带没有包扎好,最后弄好了,婴儿不哭了,一切有恢复了平静,然后就结束了.噢,还有一个就是它的黑白的影像感也极美.很简单,但是他通过这种方式来表现出的关于时间和生命的思考,这种电影语言所具有的张力是别的艺术形势所无法达到的.......虽然大多数时候因为生活很无聊或者工作压力很大我们都会看一些很轻松的,很有故事性的电影,但是回到电影最纯粹的状态,我认为电影不应该是那样的....
During that time, the director Bingfeng Dong from our center—ART & INVESTMENT recommended me ten directors that he thought was best. Such as Sokoloff from Russia, Xiaojinanerlang from Japan, Vaheda from poland, etc. Of course ,I have seen most films of the directors he has recommended before. They are really very good. But I thought people of their time, he is about forties, cares more about the value of culture. Such as the meaningness of the film or the depth of the thought. They take the film as a social problem. But in our time what people cares more is to think about the film by the view of film itself. I think the most important thing of film is the language which includes several points as follows. 1, the phantom feeling 2, movement sense, the difference between it and the photographic lies in the film is movement. 3, editing, also is the montage. 4, the scene dispatch. All the points mentioned above consist of the movie language which can't be expressed by painting,music or literature. I do not know if you have watched the film < ten minutes' passages to die of old age >,in which there was a short cut. It was about a baby whose umbilical cord had not cut, which lead to bleed, finally it had been discovered by her mother and gripped the matter successfully. It was not storical basically, but I thought the movie should not tell the story. In order to let you understand the main idea, I will describe several lens simply. Most of the conditions I can't remember very clearly for I have seen the film for many years. Generally speaking, it was happened in a farm in the afternoon, the sunlight was very intense, there was a sickle cutting grass in the lens, carbazole carbazole…, a swing which was moved by the autumn wind , the sound of the creaking and cutting grass was very coordinated, several similar rhythm lens followed, then along with fly buzz humming sound , a bloodstain spot appeared and came to spread In the lens. The seepage fill out slowly, similar rhythm to the heartbeat in the following lens, which looked like the clock pendulum tick-tock tick-tock. These lens gathered in the same place fairly showed an extreme tranquil summer noon, and the timeliness as well. Almost to the end of the film, there spread a baby's weeping sound, then her mother had come and discovered the umbilical cord had not been wrapped up, finally things had done well, the baby stopped crying, all had restored tranquilly, then finished. Oh, its black and white phantom feeling was also beautiful extremely, very simple, but it displayed the thinking about time and life through this way. This kind of movie language obtained the tensity that other artistic situation was unable to achieve. Most of time, because of the dullness of life or the pressure from work ,we will watch some easy or storical film, but I think it shouldn't be like that, especially when we go back to the purest condition of film.

H:是的,就像绘画肯定是一种沉默的表达.还有就是比如说文字表达也一样...
Yes, painting certainly is one kind of silence expression and words has the same quality with it as well.

W:是阿,前段时间读南懷瑾写的<庄子喃曄>里有一句古诗:江上何人初见月,江月何时初照人. 太美了.这种文字性的东西表现在诗歌上算是极致了.
A while ago, I have read the < Zhuang-zi nan ye > written by Nan huanjin . One of the lines in the ancient poetry goes like this: In the river who initially saw the moon, and when the river moon shined according to the human at the beginning. That's too beautiful. This kind of literal thing displayed in the poetry is the acme.

H:中国你像唐诗宋词是没法被翻译的,尤其是在国际上真的无法被翻译.那种节奏韵律....还有就是我觉得看诗最好的时节就是春天,山野烂漫...很简短很轻松...前段时间读白居易的诗,头两句就是"花时同醉破春愁， 醉折花枝当酒筹"感觉就是很好嘛.呵呵.
In China ,such as the Tang poem and Song jambic verse have no way to translate, and they are really unable to translate in particular internationally. That kind of rhythm…. I think the best season to enjoy poems is the spring, the mountains and plains are brilliant…Very brief and very relaxed…some time ago I read Bai Juyi's poem, the first two lines were ” hua shi tong zui po chun chou, zui zhe hua zhi dang jiu chou” , the feeling is very good. Ha-ha.

W: 有读老邱的书里有一段很搞,有一日本诗人写的诗他很喜欢" 乌鸦,这夜的碎片,纷纷扬扬...." 他举例说这才叫诗,如果你写成"乌鸦是一只黑色的鸟"OK,这句话没有错,但如果写成"乌鸦是一块黑色的石头"那但凡理智清醒的人都会说你是神经病...哈哈哈...
In the Lao Qiu's book ,I have read a section was very interesting. A Japanese poet wrote the poem he liked as this“ crow , the fragments of night, thick falling…” he gives the example to express what is called poem . If you wrote " the crow is a kind of black bird ", OK, this speech is not wrong, but as long as you wrote " the crow is a black stone ", then any conscious people will say you are crazy, ha ha…

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